NATALIE BARR, HOST: Well, Victoria is making masks compulsory from Thursday, as the state struggles to control its Coronavirus outbreak. Residents in Melbourne and the Mitchell Shire will face a $200 fine if they leave home without one.
MATT DORAN, HOST: It follows a global shift towards face masks after recent studies found them to be effective ways of reducing virus transmission. Let's bring in Nationals MP, Barnaby Joyce, and Shadow Resources Minister, Joel Fitzgibbon. Very good morning to you both. Barnaby, should all Australians, do you think, be wearing masks outdoors now and not just Victorians?
BARNABY JOYCE, MEMBER FOR NEW ENGLAND: I think it's moving in that direction. We have to be, where it's reasonable - obviously out here it'd be pretty ridiculous, I mean, what are you gonna, who are you going to talk to? - but if you're in town, in a more of a crowded area I think that's going to become a reasonable request. We have just got to learn to live with this. We have got to get this economy going. We just can't go on like this. We can't shut down again, we just cannot afford it. We have got to learn to manage this, just like you manage the rain, like you manage frost, you're going to have to manage this.
BARR: Joel, it's an interesting question. People saying we can't shut down, because there's this theory that we do elimination or suppression. New Zealand did shut down, they went, you know, sort of DEF CON, you know, ten to elimination strategy and now they're open. What do you think? Should we just really shut down everything for a month and then maybe reopen earlier?
JOEL FITZGIBBON, MEMBER FOR HUNTER: Well, I think by international comparison we've done relatively well as a country and I believe we've done well because we've followed the best medical advice and I think that's what we need to keep doing. Follow the advice, and if the advice is that in the more densely-populated areas we need to wear masks, then we should wear masks for a while. But like Barnaby I want that economy to keep going and we need to get that balance right. We can't afford to drive this recession even deeper and to make it longer.
DORAN: Well, it certainly sounds like masks will help. A recent study out of the World Health Organization shows that depending on what type of mask you use, it can reduce the risk of transmission somewhere between 60 and 90 per cent which is pretty encouraging. Growing demand, though, for masks means they're in pretty short supply right now. Barnaby, do you see this sort of developing as perhaps Australia's next great toilet paper moment?
JOYCE: No, I can't because I just don't think that unless you're going to use your mask for other purposes, I think it's going to be a pretty personal thing that - we've got millions of them in store, I don't think it's going to be a big issue. I don't know what it is with toilet paper. They're into it again. It's just bizarre. One day you're going to meet one of these people and you're going to go to their garage, and there is just going to be a whole heap of poo paper stacked up to the roof, waiting for a disaster of monumental proportions from their rear end. I don't know how it works. This, this...
BARR: ...we've already well, we might see a masks stacking up in people's garages, Joel. Do you think we should have been wearing masks from the start? A lot of Asian countries have been, Joel. Would this have got us out of a lot of trouble because if this has started, you know, we've had the problem in Victoria, then it's been seeping into the outskirts of Sydney. And it's heading in. We've seen, you know, restaurants close in to the City of Sydney, with cases, you know, it's spreading fast in New South Wales now.
FITZGIBBON: Nat, I'm still wondering what the other purpose is that Barnaby was referring to with respect to the masks. Look, I just don't know. I just don't know whether we should have had been wearing them earlier. But I do know that we've done relatively well as I said by international comparison, and we just need to continue to follow the medical advice. But it does again highlight the need for self-sufficiency in a number of areas in our economy, obviously defence, skills security, food security and the capacity to fend for ourselves on personal protection and other medical equipment and medicines during not only a pandemic, but any time of crisis. This is going to, and should, spark a new debate about our self-reliance.
DORAN: I'm sure it will. Changing topics, the childcare workers will today become the first people effectively kicked-off the JobKeeper wage subsidy. Barnaby, do you think there is enough support now in place, I guess for this sector, to ensure that it is viable for both the providers and parents?
JOYCE: I think we are coming to a reality where an excess - go to AOFM, Australian Office of Financial Management, AOFM. You'll see our debt is now well in excess, gross debt, of $700 billion. There are going to be a lot of things that happened that we wish didn't have to. A lot of payments that are reduced, we wish we didn't have to. But the alternative is you have got to be honest about it and say, well in the future we're prepared not to have pension rises, we're prepared not to have health spending, we're prepared not to have defence spending, we're prepared for our kids to live with less of the services than we live with because of a massive debt. Now, we can't do that. We are going to have to start cutting the cloth to fit the wearer, and it's not a case of you want to do it. It's a case that, it's just like you with a credit card. A nation's got one and unfortunately you get to a point where you have to start making it all fit.
BARR: Yeah. Where do you stand on childcare, Joel?
FITZGIBBON: Well on Barnaby's point first, the deficit will grow larger, if the dole queues grow longer, government revenues collapse and outlays for support payments rise. So you have to get the balance. Now, I've been willing to back the Government where it's made the right decisions during COVID, but childcare has been a mess from the start, and will continue, it will get worse today after the withdrawal of JobKeeper. The government will spend less on this initiative than it was on JobKeeper, which is usually a sign that this is more about savings, rather than economic efficiency. And of course, people look at childcare and they think mothers and children in particular, and they are very, very important, but this is really about making sure people can continue to participate in the economy, and that will be critical to reducing that public debt.
BARR: Yeah, well, the ACT News put a case that if we spend more on childcare, we'll actually pump more into the economy. So we'll ask the treasurer that, coming up after seven. Thank you, gents. We'll talk to you next week.