LEIGH SALES, HOST: As I mentioned earlier, Joel Fitzgibbon has quit Labor's frontbench over its direction on climate and energy and energy policy. He joins me now, from Parliament House. Joel Fitzgibbon, why do you feel at this point that it's better to be outside the tent than in?

JOEL FITZGIBBON, MEMBER FOR HUNTER: Well, as I explained in my press conference today, Leigh, I've had a plan since the 2019 election to transition to the backbench. In fact, I decided not to contest the frontbench position after the election - immediately after the election - but I decided, after giving that some thought, that I owed it to the party to stick around in a senior position, and to help with the rebuilding process and to help make the Party more competitive. I've done that for 18 months. I think I've made some progress there. I think I've built some momentum, and I now feel I can comfortably continue that work from the backbench.

SALES: But you do have a problem with the Party's direction at the moment?

FITZGIBBON: We've had a dust-up or two. My very simple view, Leigh, is that the best way you achieve meaningful action on climate change - something I very strongly support - is to become the government. You can't do much from opposition. You can have the best climate change policy in the world, but if it stays in the top drawer after the election it's of no assistance to the climate whatsoever.

SALES: How do you think Labor should manage the job that it wants to do, which is to appeal to both the inner-city progressives and the suburban and working-class voters who aren't so far to the left?

FITZGIBBON: Well it's difficult, Leigh, it's a challenge. But it's not a new challenge. Hawking and Keating did it very successfully, so too did Rudd. He went into the 2007 election with quite an ambitious and meaningful climate change policy, but he took a conservative approach to economic management, he talked about aspiration he told people he wanted to incentivise more work and greater opportunity, he had a strong social welfare program. You know, you can walk and chew gum too, if you're smart about it Leigh. And my view is that the culture of the party in recent years has been one which has provided too much focus, too much emphasis on the more, the progressive side of the party and progressive policies, while somewhat ignoring the traditional base and the policies that working people need to help them meet their aspirations and the aspirations for their families.

SALES: In terms of what working people need, because the world's not done enough on climate change, the serious consequences of that are getting worse. We saw it this summer with the bushfires in Australia. As painful as any kind of reform is aren't governments better to square-up to people who work in say coal and gas and say, ‘Look, this is a dying industry, it's going to happen sooner rather than later. Let's help you make a transition’?

FITZGIBBON: Well, first of all, the best way to get an outcome on climate is for the major parties to work together. It doesn't suit the Coalition to settle the climate wars because it's delivered so fruitfully for them at so many elections. But that's just a false premise, Leigh. The reason, after record investment in renewables, that renewable investment has fallen away is because we physically can't get more renewables into the grid without it becoming unstable. So you need that baseload and synchronous power in the system, and of course fossil fuels will continue to play a role in that, but gas and the existing coal-fired generators, until they reach the end of their economic and physical lives. Now, in some cases like Liddell, that will be in a couple of years. But in some cases, with some of the newer generators in Queensland, they'll go to 2050.

SALES: After Labour introduced the carbon pricing mechanism in Government, and helped drive greenhouse gas emissions down by nearly 15 per cent, you've said before that if it had been left in place, we'd now be in a far better position. Should Labor return to that as its policy?

FITZGIBBON: Well, over the last 13 years, since the election of the Rudd Government, we've had, you know, no less than half a dozen climate change-slash-energy policies. That successful scheme was one of them but of course that was outrageously repealed by the Abbott Government. This is why we need to build a consensus. But the climate change wars are behind us, I mean Scott Morrison says he wants to get to net zero emissions, something the whole country seems to support: all the premiers, Labor and Liberal, the NFF – Farmers’ Federation - all the major resource companies. But Scott Morrison just can't bring himself to lock it in. Because it wasn't his idea, basically.

SALES: You know that when you make a move like yours, and when you speak out as you have, it's always interpreted as a vote of no confidence in the leadership, and as a potential sign of trouble ahead.

FITZGIBBON: Well, what do I do Leigh? And I set this path 18 months ago, I told Anthony Albanese a number of months ago, this was my intention. It was time to make the transition, I've set myself an 18 month path. And, you know, I didn't ambush Albo - he knew it was coming. There's never a good time, it seems.

SALES: Just one final other matter, the personal behaviour of politicians in Canberra, when it spills into the workplace. Most corporations have policies around what is acceptable and then accountability mechanisms when complaints are made. Is it time for something like that in Parliament House that actually sits outside political offices, given that this is an issue that cuts across party lines?

FITZGIBBON: Well, there's no choice now Leigh. Of course the community would expect the system to respond and it must respond in a meaningful way.

SALES: And do you have any thoughts yourself as to the best way for that to occur?

FITZGIBBON: No I don't, I'm sorry, Leigh. I have no idea. You know, my experience, I hope this is not a mistake to draw the analogy, but you know we had a suicide here in Parliament House, many years ago. A good friend of mine in Greg Wilton MP. And it immediately caused an outcry, and we put in place systems then so MPs who were feeling the need for some assistance were able to reach out. So I suspect something very similar to that, to women in particular who feel they've been harassed, and they need someone to talk to, or maybe even need some protection.

SALES: Joel Fitzgibbon, thank you very much.

FITZGIBBON: A pleasure, Leigh.