Good evening. Good evening. A scathing report on last year's horse flu outbreak has claimed its first scalp. The boss of the quarantine service has stood aside after an inquiry slammed the organisation for systematic failures, understaffing and bureaucrat confusion. The report found the disease was probably brought to Australia by horses from Japan, and passed on when people in contact with the animals didn't clean themselves properly. The Agriculture Minister says it's hard to put a cost on the outbreak, but he expects those affected to sue. China has warned Australia to keep a close eye on the activities of the Dalai Lama during his 5-day visit here. The Chinese Foreign Ministery has asked Australia not to allow the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader to carry out what it calls separatist activities. In Sydney today, the Dalai Sydney today, the Dalai Lama reiterated his call for greater autonomy for his homeland. And four men have appeared in court in Melbourne over a $78 million drug bust. Police say the haul of cocaine, amphetamines and ecstasy was found in a shipment of foot spas from Canada. More news on 'Lateline' at 10:30.

CC APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to another live and under predictble 'Q&A', the program where you get to ask the questions. Tonight questions. Tonight I'm joined by Australia's Defence Minister, fits. Academic and musician Kate Crawford, the former Minister for the arts and sport now shadow Attorney-General George Brandis, founding member of the Chaser and could've been intern to Hillary Clinton Charles Firth. And New South Wales State Liberal MP Pru Goward. Please welcome our panel. APPLAUSE Before tonight's program our audience put forward the questions they'd like to sct panel. We've chosen those we think are the best. The members of the panel haven't seen those questions, they'll be answering them off the cf. 'Q&A' is live, you can send your name, address and questions via the Webb at 'Q&A' rr. Or by SMS to the number on your screen. via the Webb at question and answer question and answer At 'Q&A' rr. This question from Romi Zavala-Cano.

Why despite the fact that her husband is a political figure that Ms Neal seems to be copping all the flak. Do you think that jender is playing a part in the treatment?

Belinda Neal is the Federal Labor MP whom Kevin Rudd has ordered to undergo anger management counselling after a series of headline stories about her temper. Her husband is the New South Wales education Minister. This all began after a big night out that both of them had a restaurant rather brilliantly named Ig wanna Joe's. Sexism or not?

Lucky me. This is one of those quite nasty stories. It's a case of bad behaviour, whichever way you slice it. When it comes to whether or not there's a gender bias here, I'm not entirely sure there is. I think Kevin Rudd has play this had quite well by suggesting very quickly Belinda take herself off to anger management therapy and in some ways we can learn from this that hopefully in the New South Wales Government we'll see Iemma step up and do the same for Della Bosca. If that doesn't happen at the very least I hope the Liberals will realise that possibly once amongst their ranks Troy Buswell couldbank about seeing a therapist if indeed they do have therapists for chair sniffing. I'd like to think we'd see a few more of our politicians who tend to get a bit tense to see a therapist. I think it's healthy.

Charles Firth, you're no stranger to angerment classes.

I tend to agree with you. I think Belinda Neal has been treated very unfairly in this. I agree with the version of events that one of her mates put out very early on in this peace, she wrote a statutory declaration saying that Belinda Neal never lies. I think subsequently we've found that that statutory declaration is entirely true.. So... She never swears, she's a person of great, sort of moral... I think the thing that's going on here is that Kevin Rudd has the numbers to be able numbers to be able to rap Belinda Neal over the knuckles. Morris Iemma is a wimp who needs Della's support in caucus and can't do anything about it. It's mates versus, you know, Belinda Neal, she's a little woman backbencher, might as well... No, not... LAUGHTER I'm not saying that...

Shall I give you a... Shall I give you a...

Quit while you're ahead.

That's the - pru, you'll back me up, you're a feminist. Wellering sort of!

I think the whole idea of this all being about her... LAUGHTER

I'm not saying that...

Shall I give you a...

Quit while you're ahead.

That's the - Pru, you'll back me up, you're a feminist. Wellering sort of!

I think the whole idea of this all being about her. LAUGHTER

I'm not saying that...

Shall I give you a...

Quit while you're ahead.

That's the - Pru, you'll back me up, you're a feminist. Wellering sort of!

I think the whole idea of this all being about her... I'mlist lost for words. It's nothing to do with her bad behaviour. That's just a red herring. What?

! This issue is about whether or not she She corrupted the lays of the land by threatening people with their jobs and threatening their licences. It's a very serious issue.

Oh come on! no...

Pru, you've put your political hat on. Put your sexual discrimination Commissioner hat on and creas the - address the point made by Labor MP Julia Irwin this morning in defence of Belinda Neal. She says the women of the Parliament are always being singled out by the media for these kind of stories. Do you deny sna? - that?

Absolutely. It doesn't May pay anybody to behave badly in Federal or State politics. I don't think she's been singled out but to keep trivialising it as a bad behaviour issue when we're talking about a corruption issue is a serious thing.

Wh where's the corruption?

The possibility of there being corruption. That's what we should be investigating. Not whether Mr Rudd is ideally placed to be a counsellor. Anger management? That's not a hanging offence. There'd be nobody in this room who couldn't probably deal with - do with a bit of that. It's whether she has abused her position as mema member of Parliament particularly with a - by her marriage of someone who by inference she can draw into that. This is an ethical question.

Joel Fitzgibbon, you're the same party, the same Parliament. By the way, Julia Irwin also pointed out your old mate Mark Latham broke a cab driver's arm and there was no party action against him. Certainly no anger management classes. LAUGHTER Is this a - one rule for men, another for women?

He always gets a mention. I was pretty confident I might be left out of this part of the conversation. On the issue of sexism I think another politician is basically the wrong person to scsmt we all develop a pretty healthy cynicism towards the media. Something went wrong obviously, that night. You about I think it's been largely beat up by the media.

It was a piss-up at a pub that got out of hand and it's been blown out of all proportion. There's nothing to do with -

But kids got their jobs -

The law.

That's not true. You and WorkChoices, remember that. Kids got their jobs threatened.

Yeah, it was an incredibly embarrassing event. Where the power obviously rushed to her head, she's bust just been elect add backbencher.

There we are. You've finally got it.

The power has rushed to her head.

I'm with Pru. It is about bad behaviour but there's a deeper issue. The deeper issue is abuse of power.

Why have I been put between two prudes?! LAUGHTER

Just listen for a moment. ... Is a powerful person in her own right.

Come over to that side.

Influential member of Parliament, married to a State Labor moib and when - Minister and when a scene turnsing wli what is her reaction? It is to say "I are the power - have the power to deprive you of your licence, because of who I am, because of the political networks to which I belong to make sure you get sacked". That's not just about bad behaviour. That is about abuse of power.

George, you have ever been to the Central Coast? If she wants to be lady of the Central Coast she can be it. They can have the Central Coast. (all talking over each other)

Hold on. Hold on, hold on everybody. Hole on everybody. George. George. Just wait a minute. Joel Fitzgibbon I want to hear if there is a defence to what's being said over this side of the table.

First of all,

table.

First of all, George should know by thank you now that when the Government of the day has got itself in a big enough pickle it doesn't really need the assistance of the opposition, just trying to point score on the issues, not helping to answer the very question that was asked. That was whether Belinda Neal has cop add harder time because she's woman. I like to think the answer to that is no. But when you run for Parliament you put yourself to - before the court of the Unfortunately there are no real rules of evidence or any procedural fairness involved. We all put ourselves up for ha. We've got to expect tougher scrutiny than members of the general public. I don't know what happened - absolutely. I don't know what happened that night. Tony, none of us dosmt we'll sue ho it washes out over the course of the next few days. Sno you've got a pretty fair idea. Six spontaneous statutory declarations from the staff and they were sufficiently persuasive to persuade the Prime Minister to interrupt his trip to Japan to ring her up to counsel her. They were persuasive enoif enough get the Deputy Prime Minister to openly condemn her in the media this morning. You can't airbrush this away by saying it doesn't really matter. What matters is the character of the threat, to use the power that this person has that others in the community don't have. That the victims of the threat stmt have in order to subject them to a detriment.

Alright.

Well... APPLAUSE

George Brandis SC, we should make the point. I want to hear your response.

George is a lawyer, he should know better. He has come to a conclusion without knowing all the facts. I don't know all the facts. We'll let that wash out in the end. I'm not here to defend Belinda. She's good local member. She's entitled to some procedural fairness and we'll let it wash out.

It would be sexism if it was just about bad behaviour but I think there is a bigger issue. That is why it continues to be an issue of public interest.

We're going to another question op the same subject. From Sonia erington.

Hi. As the public demands greater transparency and accountability from corporations, governments and public figures should a three strikes you're out type of system be implemented?

Question is to what you do about issues like this. Kate Crawford?

Well, it's got a certain kind of appeal. You can keep them accountable. You could say you're up to No. 2 you better be on your best behaviour. I also think that ultimately politicians are people too. They are prone to making occasional nightmarish decisions and in thecation of Belinda I think possibly some very poor judgment calls on the night. This can tend to happen. I don't want us to turn the process of democracy into a best behaviour area, where everybody has to be running around making sure they're being very politically correct and on their best behaviour at all times. I think we do need to scrutinise politicians' behaviour but I'd be really wary of mandating any kind of three strikes policy.

Joel Fitzgibbon, would you get one strike for a big night out at Scores night club in New York? If you got so drunk you couldn't remember seeing the lap dancers? LAUGHTER

It's not me proposing the system! I'm not going to go there. but I think suffice to say I think our democracy works pretty well and if Belinda Neal and any other politician... I think the Democrating process will have taken care of her in threories' time.

Is there a sort of Labor certified anger management team that are going to be brought in? I haven't quite worked out where this is going to happen? Does anyone know?

I suspect there's about to be.

I was a bit pissed off with Rudd coming out and sort of condemning Belinda Neal when if you look at the separation of powers. she's a backbencher, she's part of the legislature, Rudd's in charge of the executive. I know this is all a bit technical but Rudd has nothing to do with Belinda Neal. It's the party who should look after this sort of thing. A three-strikes you're-out policy, I think it should be three-strikes and you're in. I don't understand why people don't like their politicians to be a bit human. The Scores night club thing, you were... Saw the internal party polling, Joel. It gave him a bit of a bump. It was the mini sex scandal that Kevin Rudd needed to have. LAUGHTER

Of course it was sell All set up.

Three strikes you're out, I agree in the best test of how the electorate feels about somebody is that vote every three or 4 years, and that's when they make a valued assessment, that's when they take into account human frailtyies. Because the electorate has a great nose for what's right, and for fraud, and they've got a great nose for knowing when somebody was a bit off balance but on-balance is a good person. I think that's what they'll do in this case.

Let's see if anybody from the audience wants to make a comment. Yes, down the front.

I'm just - quite amazed at this hasn't come up before. The comparison between the Belinda Neal incident and the John Brogden incident. Both forms of bad behaviour, both examples where the media have played a massive part. This is something that hasn't been commented on a lot. We're seeing huge hysteria generated in the media, much larger than what the incident probably justifies and in the case of John Brogden we saw someone that really was in a lot of troublg, lost their political career, what do you guys really think about the power of the media in the whole cycle of this incident? Kate Crawford? It's a crshl power. If we started being a Walkley Awards to the people who sold papers rather than the journalist who is wrote them Belinda Neal would be getting a Gold Walkley. She'd been on the front pages of the papers for 5 days running. In the case of John Brogden that was quite a damaging experience. In this sense there does have to be some accountability by the media to say these are human beings, people's lives that are in fact under extraordinary strain. We can see how this plays out with our politicians when they are in fact becoming very upset. I think in the case of blinda, rightly, she's not coping with this very well right now. This is an issue for the media sector to think about and to scrutinise its own ethical practice.

George Brandis, should you as a - an opponent get this in perspective or should you score as many big political points as you possibly can while this story's still running?

For a start I think that Belinda Neal's behaviour and what Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard have made of Belinda Neal's behaviour really spikes for itself. Without anybody having to score any political points. This was plainly bad behaviour. It was considered to be such by the Prime Minister and as I - point I was making before is that it was something worse than that because it was an attempt to abuse baur. You look at the John Brogden case, right, now John Brogden lost his career over that. Over that event. We will wait to see with interest what happens to Belinda Neal. I think anybody who goes into public life just has to accept the fact that what they do what, they say, their public conduct, which includes conduct at any public place, is a proper matter of scrutiny and of public judgment. That's one of the prices people pay for having careers in public life. I haven't heard anyone incidentally suggest that it is inappropriate for the media to call attention to this.

OK, I'm going to go to another question from the audience on the same subject again, from Linda Daniel.

As part of that media coverage, Belinda Neal is reported to keep photos and names of her enemies in the freezer. Do you keep track of your enemies and if so how? LAUGHTER

George Brandis, let's start with you.

I'm not really sure who my enmys are. LAUGHTER

You don't have any!

They're all on your een Own sides, George.

I'm not sure that I do indeed have any enemies but if I did I certainly wouldn't engage in the kind of Nixonian behaviour that's attributed to Belinda Neal. There is something, I don't know if the reports are true, these reports were sourced within the Labor Party. It seems particularly in New South Wales to have this extremely Gothic culture, but... there are areas of the Labor Party particularly in New South Wales -

You still fighting the State of Origin State of Origin, are you? Queenslander?

You one . You won.

There are areas of the New South Wales Labor Party that are seriously weird. These reports that came from within the Labor Party that this person puts a photographs and the names of her legion of enemies in the freezer I think... I can't improve on that.

I don't wants to make light of it but you did once refer to a former prime minister as a lying row dent. Rode ent.

I never did, you know.

Did you at least keep his name in the refridge rarity?

No, far from it . I have a photograph of him on the mantle piece.

There you go

. I keep the name of my enemy in the freezer. His name's Kelvinator.

Oh..

. I got some applause. Shall the rumour I heard 'cause I've got links into the ALP, the rumor I heard with the Belinda Neal keeps her enemies in the freezer!

Joel Fitzgibbon, I'm sure you can refute that at the very least.

I'm wondering whether George is prepare ed to sign a stat deck rr on the rodent. I think we should be grateful the only thing in the freezer is the photographs.

And now..

. In politics we all have enemies. It's a reality. You only need about 50 plus 1% to survive and I find the best way to keep them to account is to have a good memory.

A

n Annen my is in your own eyes. Most people don't take too much notice of anybody anyway. If you have your enemy in the freezer it tends to be because you think they're your enemy. You'll be surprised very often to know they don't even know your name. I think the whole idea of keeping people in the fridge really is a reflection of... On how you see your self in your world.

Or something that happen nd Adelaide! I wonder if all those people in the freezer have been told their names are thrsmt Seriously for a moment, politicians tend to...

Thanks for ing us back down to earth.

Tend to keep their enemies on speed dial. I was looking at Joel's phone before. You should see the people on his speed dial. It's all his enemies.

Kate Crawford, do appreciate Professors have enemies? Associate Professor s.

The I cad my, everyone's friends. We stab each other in the back in journal articles, it's very effective. Then we have collections of voodoo dolls. No, I think this is one of those particularly political issues of having to really track your enemies. Unfortunately in the case of Belinda I think the is increasing - the number is increasing rapidly this particular week.

The gentleman with his hand up. No, sorry, wrong one. I beg your pardon.

I think - what hasn't been addressed is this could abbig problem for the Government considering even though she's a backbencher she got drunk while the Government's trying to combat this whole binge drinking culture in Australia. I think that would come back to really hit the government and I was wondering if the Liberals are gonna try and attack the Government for that sort of issue.

Joel Fitzgibbon, I don't suppose binge drinking was involved in this case but might like to take that.

I'm not Belinda Neal's lawyer but I come back to the basic point, was Belinda Neal drunk? We were talking about the power of the media, and you have come to the conclusion she was drunk because the media said she was drunk. I don't know whether she was drunk or not but if she was then thank would be a... No, Charles, because on a backbencher salary she could never afford them. If she was drunk that's an inconsigs ebt message from the Government and that would be bad for the Government.

It wasn't just the media, though. There were reports from the staff. That's the whole point. If there were six reports from the staff, why would six staffers lie about it?

These are now subject to a police investigation, Tony. We have to be careful about what we say.

There is a serious point this man is making and that is six members of the staffer with no motive to do so, spontaneously produced statutory declarations making a serious complaint. I think really you do a disservice to your own government to try and trivialise this.

I agree, Tony, there was obviously sufficient activity at that club that night to cause the Prime Minister to become sufficiently concerned to issue a statement. I accept that. But let us not knot come to all these conclusions before she's had her, if you like, day in court. Particular ply when so much of this information is coming from the media. 5 days in a row now. It's pretty tough.

Tonight as well. I'm going it draw a line under it now. Remember that 'Q&A'... APPLAUSE 'Q&A' is live from 9.30 in the eastern States. You can put your questions via our web site or by SMS, simply text your name, location and question to the number on your screen. Thanks for all of the questions you've been sending. We can't ask them all but this week we put together a sample of what you've been asking. You'll find last week's measure of what's on your minds on the web site. Let's go back to tonight's issues. Our next question comes from Mathew Tukaki in the audience.

Um, my question is - I'll ask a question in a minute, I agree with Charles on the question of Belinda Neal. I want my politicians to be human. OK, she's probably been bad and John Della Bosca's probably been bad but I want to know they're like me so I can vote for them, whether they're Liberal or Labor and I think 5 days in the press I'd like to hear something about education and health and indigenous affairs and other things than whether or not she did or didn't... APPLAUSE

And indeed your question.

My question - is it time that women were allowed to seb on the frontline? And by "Frontline" I mean in physical combat roles in our defence forces especially given that our recruitment and retention rates are starting to drop and have been for a long time? Is it time we bit the bullet, not literally, engaged more women actively in our defence forces.

Pru Goward

. As Commissioner that was quite a big issue and in the end I concluded that it was going to be a matter of time and the community was not comfortable altogether with it. But that if you had women of a certain strength and certain capacity, then why not, that you shouldn't be judged for the frontline on the basis of your agenda but on the basis of your ability to perform that role. I'm sure that's where we'll get to. The other issue I noticed was because some women rarely have frontline combat duties they then don't get considered for promotion up into the consider ranks of the service and no wonder so many of them drop out.

Were you finished? Kate Crawford.

I think it's one of those issues where equity's involved f women wish to fight in the frontlines I think that should be their choice. I think there is a bigger issue here which is about the culture of joining the military, at the moment it's a very masculine culture. Unfortunately there are some really nasty incidents of women having to go through processes where they're being humiliated at work simply because they want to be part of defending their country. In actual fact I think we have to look much more closely at that kind of very male culture of the military before we can start saying this is a level playing field. At the moment it simply isn't.

Charles Firth

. I don't think anyone should join the military. APPLAUSE Yeah. Save what, 16, $17 billion a year. Could divert that into education. And how come all our questions tonight are from, you know, people who are feminists and things. You have stacked... This is the action, that's right. I think - this is the ABC,that's right. Pru brought up the serious point that the officer classes are stacked out with men. Part of that is about recruitmentment of women into the sort of lower ranks of the military, actually the officer classes come from a stream from day one nowadays through ADFA and stuff like that. That's where you have to look for jender equity. Joel, that's what you should be going and doing tomorrow morning. Is getting some quotas in there, like the ALP.

Always happy to follow your advice, Charles. thanks.

On a serious note, Joel Fitzgibbon, give us your view on the actual question - should women serve in frontline roles in combat?

It's a very serious question. Hopefully the audience will know I've been very active in this area in the relatively short time I've been the dwoim ster. Only 13% of the permanent Australian defence force are womenment . The number's been stagnant for a time.

It's declined

. Part of the problem is cultural as Pru has identified. One of the barriers in my view, is the inability of women to progress all the way through the ranks. I say we're restricting our talent pool here by sending a subliminal mess age to women fa while they could become the CEO of a major bank they can never become the CEO of the Australian defence force. I think that does restrict our pool. We've got to do much better. We're working up some programs to deal with it. Yes, in the minds of some women the inability to go all the way to the frontline could be a barrier to their decision to join the defence force.

Could you imagine in your time as Minister women serving in frontline combat roles in Afghanistan?

The reality here is that we do discriminate in a sense against women by excluding them from some frontline positions. It's changing, we're bringing down some of those barriers. I'd much rather see us Dick discriminate on the basis of physical ability than an gender.

Can you join the SAS for example if you're woman?

No, you can't . Some people would argue it shouldn't be on gender, if a wim - women has the ability to be just as fast and strong and as agile as a man, applying the - for the same position arguably she should be allowed to do that position. This is a debate that runs deep in the defence forces, you get all sorts of spurious argument abouts why women shouldn't be performing these roles. There are some pretty good arguments from time to time as well.

You asked the question, you get to have a response.

The follow up question is do you think it's not a case of what happens within the military but public perception that we don't actually - we're in the prepared yet to see women die in combat? Is it more about what the public think as opposed to what we should be doing and as a matter of public policy? Just following through in making senior appointments in senior ranks?

I like to think that the people who put up most opposition to women fighting in the frontline are people concerned both about the safety of women and the safe of the - safety of the people she would serve next to. There are some fairly valid arguments.

What are the valid arguments?

There is quite a lot of evidence about women serving in the frontsline role.

That it would be distracting.

There's that.

If you are in a dangerous combat situation apparently men are more inclined to take the bullet for a woman, risk their lives as well as... There's all sorts of gendered relationships in the frontline that can from compromise in the end all of them.

Isn't that something about training that...

Yes, I think other armies have tried that. I think the Israeli army's tried that. There is just gonna be a limit on this until we either improve the training or have some other ways of doing it. It's quite...

There's quite a few with their hands up. There is a young women with her hand up.

Is this like a parallel between the military and politics? Because it does seem that politics especially in this country, it's very male dominated. And women when ever they get high up they always seem to be discriminated.

I'd throw that straight to Pru Goward because when you entsr ed New South Wales politics you described it it's a most sexist environment.

I'm often reminded of this. I think it's very tough for a women. There is such a think as collegiality and I think there is a sense of isolation that a lot of women report the . The hours, the intensity of political life is not easy for somebody with a strong commitment to a family. I think the aggressiveness of the Parliaments and the fact that you are expected to be aggressive as a way of proving yourself to your colleagues, I think that makes it more difficult for women. Also I think increasingly men. I think it is just a matter of increasing the numbers, increasing them on merit, not on quotas. And making sure in the end that the party that you're a member of recognises that you've all got a right to be there and not to pigeon hole anybody. Not to give women the soft stuff or to expect they can't handle economics.

Alright, I'm going to change the subject again. Let's go to a video question from our web site uploaded by Sturtle, from Western Australia.

Question is - why should a child with less money in his pocket receive a lesser education? Private schooling is fundamentally wrong, it promotes inequality, it definitely isn't egalitarian, why on earth does Labor support it?

Kate Crawford

. It's interesting, isn't it, because private education is by its nature an elite institution. It's for people who have the money who can afford it. That's why it's so appealing to parents to say you're going to get this fantastic education for your child. You should consider private education. I however happen to be a passionate advocate of public education, and unfortunately what we have seen in the last 10 years particularly looking at the way in which Howard decided to fund private schools, we've seen a real loss of resources in this critical sector. I think unof the thing we need to do is think about one of the things we - what can we offer in public schools to draw parents to say "I can trust this system for my kids". I have been to both public and private schools. The reason why I was sent to a private school for my high school education was because my mother wanted to send me to a single sex school because she had read the research and it's still the same today that women tend to do better in single sex ebb vierms in high school. She couldn't find the town that I grew up that there was no single sex public school. We need to think about the sorts of things parents are looking for and find ways the public sector can offer this. I think it's a critically important thing we have strong public education.

George Brandis, I know you're going to be for freedom of choice for parents, but it does stand to reason the more you pay for education the more you get.

I am - you're right, Tony - in favour of freedom of choice in education. I think there is a false premise in the question. Because what it's gentleman who asked the question disregards is the fact that many of the poorest schools in this country are private schools. In particular, the poorest schools in the Catholic system. You have, people... The Catholic schools are the large Estelle employment of the private school system. And you have a large element of the Catholic school system which is less well resourced than many public schools. So I think this stereotyping notion that if you send your children to a private school therefore you are seblding them to a wealthy school is not sen - is nonsense. I do believe in freedom of choice. I believe that parents are entitled to send a child to a school that teachers will bring them up, for example, in the family religion or if they don't want the child brought up according to a particular religious faith as Kate in the example of Kate, if a parent wants a child brought up in a single educated in single sex school that's a matter for the family, that's a matter for the parents, what we need to do is we need to fund those schools and give parents the incentives to... The financial capability of being able to afford those schools. So rather than reinforcing the perception of elitism by making the schools so expensive that the only upper middle class and very wealthy people can afford them what, we need to do is put them in the reach of middle class and lower middle class and working people. Which is what the Howard Government tried to do.

It was obscene the amount the Howard Government gave to private schools. APPLAUSE If it was genuine freedom of choice, then the Government would give all their money to the public schools and you could go to the private schools if you wanted to pay for it and that's your choice. That's freedom of choice. APPLAUSE And then you would are have a much better public system. I know it's all about the Catholic vote and has been since Menzies and that's why we have this terrible system. Let's blame Menzies, a-agree. But it is just obscene... the Federal Government... I think it was something like $8 billion a year more to... Um... The private school sector than the public school. By the end they were funding the private school sector more than the university sector. It's an obscenity.

You've forgotten the state Government that is entirely fund the State sector.

I'm talking about the Federal Government. Howard.

Don't be ridiculous. The Federal Government is there topping it up. That's the only funding the private schools get. They don't get...

I'm saying it was an obscene amount of money. They fund all the universities and that was less than the amount they were giving to Kings School for their 17th... Olympic swimming pool. APPLAUSE And their polo field.

That's not true

. Quick point Pru Goward.

The point about private education is that no Government could ban it, the points about public education -

I'm not saying ban it, just make people pay for it.

OK. The points about public education is we've got to invest in it properly so our public education is competitive with private education, all these parents do not snd these scils kids to these schools just because they're snobs. They think they get a -

Because Howard underfunded the Government system.

That was long before Mr Howard. I think we have to take public education seriously.

Joel Fitzgibbon, this is a fundamental point. You have to ask the obvious question - why is it countries with bigger populations than Australia, France and Germany, can have a perfectly good public secondary education system that everyone wants to send their kids to, so they virtually have no serious private education system. Why is it so different here?

Notwithstanding George's misguided views and his attempt to argue the Howard Government had the balance right I hope everyone on the panel indeed everyone in the audience agrees on one point - that every Australian child is entitled to be able to access a decent education. I know that numbers are changing, I think still around 60% of Australian kids still attends a public school. If we don't properly resource public schools we don't have much of a future. That should be the starting point. I can agree with George on one point - parents should have a choice. I'm the product of the Catholic system myself. Our No. 1 pliert should - shall - priority should be thery sourcing of public schools. Why do we argue about one or either? Why aren't we investing sufficient money to ensure every kid gets that opportunity then later on argue about how we carve it up. I think we can safely argue we're doing more but the balance wasn't right, George, last time around. I think we can do much better.

It's not a zero sum game. Every dollar we invest in education is a dollar well spent.

The money that the Howard Government invested in private education most of which went to poor schools, every dollar of - it did. (Audience protest)

If you look at the figures there is no question most of that money went to poor schools and particularly in the poor...

In marginal seats.

Every doll art Howard Government invest end those schools made those schools more affordable and therefore less elitist.

I have to quickly gog... We're going to finish up with this topic shortly. Down the front there are a number of young women with their hands up.

I want to make a statement first - thank the State Government for offering us the teachers less than the CPI pay rise so thank you. We ob yuly work between 9 and 3. That's what we do.

I have a question - I go to McCellar girls, which is a public girls school. is a public girls school. I want to know, you say that we put all this money into private education when most of their students are paying 20,000-odd dollars to go do that school every year. I know that I have friends who go to school and take apple laptops, they are these amazing resources, I know that we go to school and it's a great school, but we don't obviously have the same resources, we have nowhere near the same resources. Yet we put money into these schools where stients students are paying $20,000 a year each student and why are we put sog much nun money into schools that are being so funded by their own students? APPLAUSE

I'm gonna throw that to Joel Fitzgibbon. Really that is a question for the sitting Government.

Yeah, sure. Surely you'd agree that there is no harm in the Government investing the equivalent of the what they don't spend sending a kid to a public school on a private school. That's not necessarily I would've thought such a heinous crime. But can we just touch on computers. We've got this lap top computer roll-out happening Tony, Julia Gillard today announced the recipients of that project for the first round. I made a number of announcement as as consequence of that today in my own electorate. Those computers went pretty fairly across both the public and private sector. Importantly the goal was to ensure that every student whether attending a public school or private school eventually faces a computer-to-student ratio of no greater than one to two. That's the objective. Not debating about who ask most deserving but making sure all children no matter where they go to school have access to that important technology.

It's no use giving the kids computers though if the teachers don't have one. I don't have a lap top. They're gonna be computer literate but I'm not.

You don't have access to the computers?

I have my own personal one but I don't have one at school I can use all the time when I need it.

Don't think anyone in the Government believes dropping a computer on someone is the total solution. There is teacher training involved and - in connections and access to high speed broadband which we're also doing. These are all important issues as well.

Schools in my electorate are so run down they don't have enough power to run them.

They can't run them.

That's a state Government issue.

Let's not put it in the too hard basket because it's an infrastructure issue. Let's have governments working together.

Let's not overproms because one. Problems with the so-called education revolution and the tool box of the 21st century, it sounded great but when you looked at the Labor Party's policy it hadn't taken into account the cost of the infrastructure. You're delivering on an end product without providing the infrastructure to enable it. That was a tremendous hole in your policy.

Your government did what, George?

The Howard Government spent more on emceags both secondary and tertiary education than any Australian Government had ever spent.

You had $3 billion out of universities for a start.

Higher education endowment fund.

You give someone a car they'll need some fuel. We didn't ignore these issues, he with were - just a policy to bring the student ratio down. We will now work with the schools and State Governments to make sure they can properly be resourced. Let's try and do T let's not try and put it in the too hard basket that George seems to want to do. Let's get on with the job and overcome these problems.

Wait a minute. You're watching 'Q&A' with Joel Fitzgibbon, dwoim ster, Kate Crawford, shadow Attorney-General, George Brandis, Charles Firth and Pru Goward. Next week we'll have another panel next week. You can be part of the audience by register ing on the web site. Let's go to our next question from Alan Clarke.

When can I ask my question in

Where's Alan Clarke?

We have our Prime Minister is in Japan at the moment, he's taken the high moral ground about whaling. That's very commendable. On the other hand, here in Australia we have so many animals that have to face the horrors of factory farming, of live exports and of mulesing, et cetera, and he says nothing. Does the panel find that hypocritical?

Kate Crawford.

Well... there's a lot of things that could be said about whaling. I think I'm pretty impressed with the fact this Kevin Rudd's decided to continue fighting this issue while he's in Japan. That takes a certain amount of guts. APPLAUSE So... We've got it to give him a tick if that. There are issues here with our own eco system. This is one of the things the Greens party is one of the few parties who still talks about these sorts of issues actually does quite well. You might notice it's very unpopular when politicians say "Let's save the Kwoka" because what we want to hear are these much bigger stories at the moment. I think people are much more worried about things like inflation, indigenous rights, so in fact those issues unfortunately have gone off the boiler at the moment. You have to give Kevin some points for sticking to his guns in Japan this week.

It's much easier to say something you can do nothing about, that's what he's done.

That's not true, Pru. He can do a lot about all these issues. In terms of whaling all he has to is offend the Japanese, they'll hit back with something else. If it gets solved it won't be because he decided to say something in Japan.

Charles Firth.

I was going to take proud prude Pru Goward' side but I don't think I want to any more. I tend to agree that the whole whaling thing is a red herring. You have ever tasted whale? It is delicious. I don't understand what whole issue is. But, I think there should be more whaling, but... yeah. I agree, the mulesing, I don't know whether you know about mulesing which the process of cutting off the tails and everything. That's far more hideous than anything the Japanese do, when they serve it up all nice. (audience call out) Mulesing

? It is not worse than anything that's done to the whales. That's ridiculous. didn't you see it's footage? It was appalling.

I see, so because of jap ease d it and Australians don't?

No, it's...

Isn't the whole whaling thing...

It's essentially mining the sea, taking out and slicing up living creatures. Mulesing, unsavoury practice but not of the same scale, in order of magnitude of difference it's Humely different. It's not even in the same ball park.

Audience member:... Keep talking about I think talking about education of children and... All this is very self indullgeing compared to the situation where in Myanmar children don't even have enough to drink or clean water or enough education. Will our politicians put more money into foreign aid? More money to overseas aid?

Yeah . I disagree. I don't think you should have foreign aid at all.

We just went off the topic for a while there.

Stick with whaling

. Hang on a second.

I'm a bit confused, I think... Yes, things like mulesing are not great, but yeah, there's the alternative of what happens with the... Is also an awful thing. The thing with the whaling is the declining population. Isn't that the issue that there's very few left? Therefore the..

. There's only one point I'd make. I looked into this earlier. Professor Tim Flannery, Australian of the Year last year describes the Minge whales as the rabbits of the sea. I don't know in that is true or not there is a debate about this.

I think this is one of these issue that is Rudd has picked up to distract everyone. It's not a... It's just not a huge issue. It's something to signal to the Chinese that he is pro Chinese rather than Japan. It's caused him a bit of diplomatic thing there, but he knows that Japan are going to buy our wheat and our... Um lamb anyway. So it's a really nice piece of political propaganda. It's what the Gunns was to Howard.

George Brandis. I wanted to make this point about the whale issue, part of the problem with this issue is the Government has gone about it in the wrong way.

For ever since the election of the Rudd Government it's had a two-track policy. There has been this flamboyant gun boat diplomacy in the Southern Ocean and threats to sue Japan in the international Court of justice. The advice to the Australian Government and the advice to the New Zealand Government to too was that there was no realistic prospect of success through the international Court of Justice. What Andrew Robby has been saying all along is don't go about it in this way. Pursue it through the International Whaling Commission. Low and behold Kevin Rudd has woken up to this fact and said we think now it ought to be pursued through the International Whaling Commission. Wls as well as the emotion that is surround this subject which we all understand we have to get the right approach, we have to get a solution that will work. I'm afraid on this as on so many other issues, Kevin Rudd has substituted an efficacious approach to a real solution for a very flamboyant public statement.

Joel Fitzgibbon. APPLAUSE

It's very true George that Kevin Rudd's approach is somewhat different than John Howard's approach. John Howard's approach was to do nothing. APPLAUSE

No, John Howard's approach was to pursue the matter... Not true. John Howard' approach was to spur sue the - pursue the matter through the International Whaling comois which we did, lo and behold Kevin Rudd today announces "We think we ought to pursue this through the International Whaling Commission".

The punters usually get it pretty right and they know instinctively two things, the slaughter of whales is , and that John Howard did very little Kevin Rudd's having a G it's this idea he picked it up as some sort of popular stance is ridiculous. This ran enormously throughout the media over the Christmas period. Like any good prime minister he responded. I think he did the right thing in responding.

He got the wrong response. He a response that was flamboyant and showy but ineffective.

Let's see whether we get an outcome.

Exactly.

Audience: Where's Mr Howard' Minister for environment today? Who is he with?'s he he's with Sea Shepherd. So this is how much he endorsed Mr Howard's policy.

Ian Cam bell is in fact the Australian representative when he was Minister for the environment at International Whaling Commission pursuing the same policy which in one breath Joel condemns is not doing enough but in the next breath admits Kevin Rudd has at last seen the wisdom of.

Are you embarrassed, George, that your ex-Minister...

I'm in the at all embarrassed that the new government having for 6 months condemned the previous government for not doing enough has at last seen that the way the briefly government was going about it was more likely in the end to be rewarded with success and therefore has adopted precisely the policies that we adopted by pursuing the matter in the appropriate forum not through flamboyant gun boat diplomacy.

... Sea Shepherd and other like minded people achieved more in one single whaling season than you did over the last 11 years. APPLAUSE

Lets me break into this. I want to ask a question of Joel Fitzgibbon - you've had one armed vessel monitoring the whaling fleets in the Southern Oceans, would you ever consider using the Navy to stop it happening?

Highly unlikely, Tony. Interestingly, despite common misconceptions on these issues we don't really have the capability to d these things over such long distances, I'd be at every point very very resistant to any sort of intervention. Certainly that's the position of the Government.

Questions from the floor. We'll go to this gentleman down the front then up to the back.

My question... The comparison between the two and the hypocrisy, we seem to have drifted away from that a little bit. It begs the question does a pig or chicken feel any less pain than a whale?

That's the point that Charles Firth was making. Kate Crawford.

I can almost take that one as a comment. We're opening up really quite large questions here about how we deal with -

They are interesting questions, though, because when there was a cull of kangaroos that are used here for pet food, that are used here for human food, there was an outcry from Japanese.

And from the Europeans.

Is there a fundamental difference between the two.

Not just mention there was a European outcry n Canberra people ran around to try and free the kangaroos from that particular incident. Obviously these are extraordinarily difficult issues. We're getting to the heart of animal ethics here. Ultimately this is how we engage with the world around us. At the moment we're very anthro centric, we see the world as something we can use and plunder for our own needs and resources, we're going to continue have those sorts of issues. It's a genuine problem. But again this requires an enormous cultural shift, about how we engage with the eco systems around us, including all the sorts of animals you've been talking about.

That's naisly sum - nicely summed up. That's all we have time for tonight. We're going to have to leave it. It's a live program as everyone can see. Thanks to our panelists, Joel Fitzgibbon, Kate Crawford, George Brandis, Charles Firth and Pru Goward. APPLAUSE We'll be back next week on ABC1 with a fresh panel of politicians and commentators including one of the Government's rising stars, the assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen, Christopher Pyne and a battle of two Chrises that is. Thanks for watching. Thanks to our aed audience for taking it up to our panel. This is a video mash-up sent to us by Kevin Eleven from Mt Barker in Western Australia. It's his take on what a 'Brendan Nelson for PM 2011' might look like. If you think you can do better go to our web site. Send us your questions, a mash-up or sign up to join our studio audience. Goodnight from us. Closed Captions by CSI

He's fresh and Australia needs a new change.

I can assure you I'll be always voting Liberal.

I've never voted Liberal in my life!

You kno who the candidate will be I'll be voting for, don't you?

Not only Iraq but the entire region is an important supplier of energy, oil, to the rest of the world. What would happen if there was a premature withdrawal from Iraq. T

onight - the NSW Education Minister says the anger counselling his wife Belinda Neal will undergo should draw a line under the matter.

Well, today there's been some cruel and inappropriate reporting and untrue reporting about my personal life in the Sydney media. I simply want to say that I'm not adding any further to this muckraking.

But after a raft of statutory declarations that tell widely differing stories, the State Opposition has asked the police to look at whether anyone might have broken the law.

We have two conflicting sets of documents, both can't be true.

CC

Good evening, welcome to Lateline, I'm Leigh Sales. Since 2003, the Darfur region of Sudan has been locked in a bloody, ethnic and tribunal war that's killed thousands of people and displaced many more. The International Criminal Court is about to start prosecuting a second war crimes case, even though in its first case, the court has so far been unsuccessful in securing the arrests of the two individuals it's indited.

Difficult yes, is useless? No, on the contrary. We can't hide the crimes - that's the point. There's a cover-up of the crimes, the

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